Batwheels showrunner Simon J. Smith on making Batman a success with preschoolers – and their families

Antz. Shrek. Baymax Dreams… You’ve made a career out of groundbreaking animation, Simon, but if – oh! You look like you’re about to disagree?!
Well, no; it’s not for me to say, I’m just pleasantly surprised that you said it.

Thank you very much!

Oh gosh, not at all; I think that’s par for the course! But I was going to ask: if you had to pitch Batwheels to the uninitiated, how would you describe it?
Basically, if you took Gotham and Batman, and took all the villains down to a schoolyard level, how would it look? So Batwheels is about how Batman’s vehicles are helping him police Gotham with a bunch of naughty school bullies running around… Batman doesn’t realise that his vehicles are like kids helping him out at a schoolyard level. And visually, it’s what you’d get if you took Fast and Furious and Batman and smashed them together. That’s the execution of Batwheels.

That’s a great summary! Now, I suppose the question people have is: what made your team look at Batman, The Dark Knight, and think “Ah! Well, preschoolers – naturally!”
I don’t know what the original thinking was from Warner Bros., but when I started, it was a bridge series… We wanted to bring it back into preschool a bit more because we realised there’s this untapped potential – because around 33% of animation is for younger audiences. And I was looking at the amazing catalogue and relationship Warner Bros. has with DC, and wondering if there was a way of bringing the adult-rated Dark Knight down to a level where everybody can enjoy it…

So that’s what the task was for me and Michael Stern, who’s the co-creator and writer. He and his writing team did a brilliant job! When I got introduced to the project, he’d written the first four pilot scripts. And what I loved about them was that he wasn’t talking down to the audience… He wasn’t talking down to the kids and he wasn’t talking down to the parents. And two words really came out of the scripts for me: legitimacy and fun.

Legitimacy and fun?
Right. I sort of extrapolated that through all of the design process, the sound design – everything… Because we didn’t need to try and be cool: we’re already in Gotham and we already have Batman – which is freaking cool! So we don’t have to try in that way; it’s legit. And what Michael and I always say is that, in Batwheels, Batman’s parents could have been shot outside the cinema with a bunch of pearls falling to the ground in slow-motion. We just don’t ever show that side. That’s what makes it feel like a legit Batman…

Yes, and Ethan Hawke plays Batman quite sincerely in your show…
Well, Ethan Hawke loved the writing of the first four scripts just like I did. That’s what attracted him to the project. He was our first choice for the role – we went out to a few people; we shot for the stars – but he really gravitated towards it. He’s been an absolute joy to work with. We were very, very lucky to get him – I think he’s just perfect.

And from the way you spoke about it there, Simon, it sounded like you’re familiar with the lore. Were you a fan of Batman prior to Batwheels?
I wouldn’t say I’m an expert, but I’m a casual fan. I’ve watched all the movies, I’ve got the original printing of the Dark Knight Returns graphic novel from 1986. And I’m an old person, Deej, so I watched the 1966 show! So when I first got a call from my agents saying, “This is a bridge show, maybe preschool – but it’s a Batman show… Are you interested?” I said, “You had me at Bat!”

Ha!
Because who wouldn’t want to play around with someone else’s money in the middle of Gotham?! It’s a no-brainer! And I think you can tell that everybody’s had such a great time working on season three –we’re working on season four now… Now, if you don’t put any love into the screen, you don’t get any love out. That’s one of the things you can feel with Batwheels because we try to put in all these little Easter eggs and fun stuff for the adults. That way, parents and older siblings can get enjoyment out of watching it as well.

And what would you say is the biggest creative challenge working on Batwheels?
Creatively, you sometimes have a comedic idea you want to include, but you can’t step over the line! That’s a natural tendency that comes out of some situations, especially with the villains. You say, “Oh, wouldn’t it be funny if they said this?” But we can’t do it, so we find other ways. Also, I think the sound design is really important in Batwheels. If you listen carefully – here’re those two words again, legitimacy and fun… There’s legitimacy with the really meaty V8 and V12 engines and all that kind of thing with the vehicles; the jet sounds for Batwing and so on…

But then, on the fun side, the villains have more playful sounds… Like the Joker’s vehicle, for example. That has loads of carnival and clown-like sounds. Harley Quinn’s has got more pinball machine sounds, then – for Kitty – there’s this sort of purring engine… Loads of fun things!

I wasn’t expecting you to speak about the sound design today, but I sense the director in you coming out there… How important is sound design?
Oh, it’s huge – huge! Some of my favourite parts of the process are the music and sound design, because that’s when it all comes together. The visuals can get you 75% of the way there, but to put it over the finish line and tee everything up properly, there’s a bunch of stuff that I’ve learned doing films and watching other people doing films in the early days… Somebody said that sound’s 50% of animation because you can steer into the exact sweet spot through sound. You can use it to change the mood instantly. I always feel music’s kind of like food as it relates to the content of a show movie or a movie…

How so?
I think it’s kind of like going to a restaurant and having a meal. You have an appetiser, which is the first act. The second act is a main course, and the third act is a dessert. And then you have the whole ambience of the restaurant: the music… Then the waiter service is the sound design! That’s how it’s delivered to you. If you feel it that way, you’re using all your senses to pick up on all these cues… To me, that’s what sound design and music do. They give you the ambience and the service and serve up these moments emotionally.

I love that! What’s the one topic, Simon, that you’ve never been asked about in relation to Batwheels that you’d love to discuss?
That’s a hard question… Well, sound design is one of them. The music nobody’s really talked about, but the songs are really good. We didn’t want to have a song in every episode, but they’re really useful in terms of tone and storytelling… Andy Sturmer, who writes all the songs, is absolutely brilliant. And actually, I do just want to give props to the people on the show…

By all means!
So Andy Sturmer’s incredible… There’re maybe 15 to 20 songs in this season and it’s a challenge to write an original song that gives the tone and the vibe in a genre which is either juxtaposing the comedic characters or the situation, or teeing things up. Then there’s the musical composer, Alex Geringas. Alex is a Grammy Award-winner who graciously lent his talents to the show. He’s a multi-talented, multi-genre composer who totally gets the essence of Batwheels…

He really wants to ride this line where we want five-year-olds to be able to watch it, but not have it feel like a preschool show where it would push the siblings and parents away. We wanted to pull everybody in – if the five-year-old was watching it, then maybe the seven-year-old would think, ’Wait a minute, what the hell is that? It’s pretty cool!’ Then the parents do the same thing… ’Whoa! That Tumbler looks great. What is this?’ – so all of a sudden, you get everybody watching it.

And the music helps that?
Yes, the goal was to have the sophistication of the music and sound design, and the quality of the songs, pull everybody in as well as the brilliant animation. And props to the animators who did season three for us in Vancouver… They did an absolutely bang-up job to raise the quality of the animation – the lighting, the effects, everything – to get us up there with movie quality. I could go on and on! The whole crew is brilliant. Our CG supervisor, Annmarie Koenig, our producer Carl Greenblat, and our editor Kyle Stafford, have done a brilliant job of raising the bar for this season.

Amazing. And in terms of season four, what can you tell us?
I can’t say too much, but I will say that season four’s got one element that’s very close to my heart and it’s absolutely brilliant… It wasn’t my idea and I couldn’t believe it when the President of Warner Bros. Animation, Sam Register suggested it… It blew my mind! So working on this season four’s been an absolute joy; one of my favourite things I’ve ever done in my career. And so all I can say is you will not be dissatisfied.

Brilliant! For someone that can’t say much about it, that was a heck of a tease! Ha! I know we need to start wrapping things up as you’re on a tight schedule, Simon. But tell me: what keeps you creative?
Oh, that’s easy! Every job I’ve had, however long it continues, whatever I end up doing, it makes me feel like I’m just getting started. I learn from every project and it tees me up and brings a couple more weapons to my arsenal of making stuff. I just love making stuff! I don’t care if it’s 10 seconds or 10 hours!

Wow!
I love process. I love working with people. I love working with talented people. I love talent. And most of the time, I think I’m the least talented person involved… Everybody else is so good at their jobs, and it’s an absolute joy to watch these people go! Because it’s just such a brilliant experience watching people do their amazing things and be incredibly talented. So I feel very privileged to work with all these people – who are much more talented than I am – and end up with something so great… One thing I always say to people is, “Keep your pride…”

Keep your pride?
Keep your pride, yes. By which I mean you want, after you get off working on a TV show, to stand in a bar next to somebody who’s just done a major movie or whatever and be able to say, ‘Hey, look – we did that!’ But it’s not very difficult to motivate me to be creative… I love making stuff and I love working with people.

Fantastic! Thank you so much for joining me, Simon. I hope we can do it again; let’s find an excuse to talk about Antz!